Novice question on the Beatific vision: Is one way to understand it as simply "life before God"? What I mean is, does the BV refer to the way we are to live life in a perpetual stance of contemplation before God, face to face; OR does it refer more to a special, one off, visual experience of the Trinity?
Similarly, but different question, is the emphasis of the BV on 'vision' or on 'relation'? (such that an intuited sense of being before God relationally would count as BV with or without any actual visual experience.)
Hey Geordie! This is a great question. My own view is that the tradition got a bit lost in the visual language, leading them to talk less of God and more about the faculties of the human person (something of an ironic reversal of the main point).
Several key things I think: First, unlike Roman Catholics, Protestants rightly (in my mind) emphasize that the beatific vision is only the vision of eternity. There might be precursors to it, and someone like Edwards would talk about scripture, for instance, as refracting this beatific light as the moon reflects the sun, and his wife's experience of Christ as a sort of precursor to it. But we live in the age of faith, that is "through a mirror dimly."
Second, to your point, both in faith and in sight, the focus is really more of a relation than anything else. I think in eternity it will include "sight" in its various forms, however. But I put that in quotes because I think "in your light we shall see light." In eternity, we are so captivated by the sight of God that God illumines everything else. By seeing God we can actually see others, for instance. So I would say that the vision we have of God's intimate presence is what creates a society of love (hence, the depiction of the New Jerusalem).
Teresa of Avilla, in talking about the 6th mansions, refers to an "intellectual vision" of the Trinity. It is unclear to me if "intellectual" means heart/soul rather than actual eyes, but whatever she is referring to, it is 6th or 7th mansion experience, which is to say it is very rare, and it does not last (i.e. it is a momentary experience which has a meaningful relational impact).
Assuming the possibility of this, it seems we can still understand that kind of experience as a "precursor" of eternity, similar perhaps, but not the same in kind or degree.
On the more everyday level, I'm wondering if there is a helpful way to speak of "life before God" or "contemplation" or the experience of being with God as God is with us...as dim or cloudy experiences of that beatific gaze. Gal 4:9 and 2 Cor 3:18; 4:6 seem to be speaking of life in this present age and are appropriating "seeing" as a source of our transformation. All that is to say, there seems to be a kind of trajectory where the reality of our union and intimate communion with God becomes more and more perfected. Now it we see by faith, but then we will see in fact. AND yet, in both cases, as you note, we should not reduce our imaginations to merely the faculty of visual sight.
Ok, sorry for the lengthiness, but teasing this out matters for those who are leaning into prayer and using language like "gazing at God gazing at me"
My reading of Teresa is that she is articulating "union" there in a distinctively Catholic way. There are accounts of this in the Protestant tradition as well (Edwards's account of his wife's experience would fall into this as well). I think her use of intellectual in that place is not "visual," signified by her claim that it is the "eyes of the soul." So there is a unique kind of experience that she equates to a precursor to the union ultimately known in eternity. I think we can say that, but I would want to maintain a distinction of kind. In other words, it is still in the realm of faith, not matter how much we have to use visual language to make sense of the experience.
If you are interested in the question of "gazing at God" in that way, I have tried to give my own account of this in my chapter in the book Embracing Contemplation. I think sight language does a lot, and should do a lot, to orient us to intimacy, presence, availability, and knowledge in specifically personal sorts of ways (much like Teresa is doing in the latter mansions).
Excellent - I just ordered that book a few days ago, so I'll give your chapter a read.
THough you may be addressing these issues in your chapter, I think we constantly find ourselves running into problems in taking language too literally, so that metaphors for intimacy are interpreted literally, e.g. "Seeing God's face." While I'm sure there will be 'seeing' in heaven, and even foretastes of it here and now for some people, will we really see GOd's face? I think we have to say no. We may be given the grace to see GOd's love for us in some tangible way, but I think we have to accept that the seeing is always going to be relationally centered, that is, a communication of intimacy in some way. This doesn't mean that what we see is not real, but that it is metaphorical or representational. Like the sacraments, what we see points beyond itself to the Reality.
Yes, that’s right. Edwards thought that seeing God’s face was seeing Christ in his humanity, but included a further “sight” of his divinity. All of this is about intimacy, knowledge, presence, etc.
This is so helpful Kyle. I had to listen to it twice. I'd love to read your essay on the Beatific vision in Edwards and Turretin. Where can I find that?
Question: I tried to listen to your Way of the Lamb podcast, but Apple Podcasts says each episode is not available. Did you take it down or move it?
Yeah, podcast still unavailable on Apple Podcasts. It looks normal until you click on one to listen to, and then it says "This episode from The Way of the Lamb is temporarily unavailable. Try again later."
I read the article you link to above, but at the end it indicates this is not "the full article." Is there a way you can send me the whole of it? I'm very interested in where this is going.
That's so weird. When I try it works fine. You can also go through Spotify. I'm going to start working on getting it up on YouTube as well. I also don't see the deal with the article, but if you email me I can send it to you. I'll poke around and see what the deal is with Apple. Are you doing it from your phone?
Novice question on the Beatific vision: Is one way to understand it as simply "life before God"? What I mean is, does the BV refer to the way we are to live life in a perpetual stance of contemplation before God, face to face; OR does it refer more to a special, one off, visual experience of the Trinity?
Similarly, but different question, is the emphasis of the BV on 'vision' or on 'relation'? (such that an intuited sense of being before God relationally would count as BV with or without any actual visual experience.)
Hey Geordie! This is a great question. My own view is that the tradition got a bit lost in the visual language, leading them to talk less of God and more about the faculties of the human person (something of an ironic reversal of the main point).
Several key things I think: First, unlike Roman Catholics, Protestants rightly (in my mind) emphasize that the beatific vision is only the vision of eternity. There might be precursors to it, and someone like Edwards would talk about scripture, for instance, as refracting this beatific light as the moon reflects the sun, and his wife's experience of Christ as a sort of precursor to it. But we live in the age of faith, that is "through a mirror dimly."
Second, to your point, both in faith and in sight, the focus is really more of a relation than anything else. I think in eternity it will include "sight" in its various forms, however. But I put that in quotes because I think "in your light we shall see light." In eternity, we are so captivated by the sight of God that God illumines everything else. By seeing God we can actually see others, for instance. So I would say that the vision we have of God's intimate presence is what creates a society of love (hence, the depiction of the New Jerusalem).
Again, very helpful. Some follow ups...
Teresa of Avilla, in talking about the 6th mansions, refers to an "intellectual vision" of the Trinity. It is unclear to me if "intellectual" means heart/soul rather than actual eyes, but whatever she is referring to, it is 6th or 7th mansion experience, which is to say it is very rare, and it does not last (i.e. it is a momentary experience which has a meaningful relational impact).
Assuming the possibility of this, it seems we can still understand that kind of experience as a "precursor" of eternity, similar perhaps, but not the same in kind or degree.
On the more everyday level, I'm wondering if there is a helpful way to speak of "life before God" or "contemplation" or the experience of being with God as God is with us...as dim or cloudy experiences of that beatific gaze. Gal 4:9 and 2 Cor 3:18; 4:6 seem to be speaking of life in this present age and are appropriating "seeing" as a source of our transformation. All that is to say, there seems to be a kind of trajectory where the reality of our union and intimate communion with God becomes more and more perfected. Now it we see by faith, but then we will see in fact. AND yet, in both cases, as you note, we should not reduce our imaginations to merely the faculty of visual sight.
Ok, sorry for the lengthiness, but teasing this out matters for those who are leaning into prayer and using language like "gazing at God gazing at me"
My reading of Teresa is that she is articulating "union" there in a distinctively Catholic way. There are accounts of this in the Protestant tradition as well (Edwards's account of his wife's experience would fall into this as well). I think her use of intellectual in that place is not "visual," signified by her claim that it is the "eyes of the soul." So there is a unique kind of experience that she equates to a precursor to the union ultimately known in eternity. I think we can say that, but I would want to maintain a distinction of kind. In other words, it is still in the realm of faith, not matter how much we have to use visual language to make sense of the experience.
If you are interested in the question of "gazing at God" in that way, I have tried to give my own account of this in my chapter in the book Embracing Contemplation. I think sight language does a lot, and should do a lot, to orient us to intimacy, presence, availability, and knowledge in specifically personal sorts of ways (much like Teresa is doing in the latter mansions).
Excellent - I just ordered that book a few days ago, so I'll give your chapter a read.
THough you may be addressing these issues in your chapter, I think we constantly find ourselves running into problems in taking language too literally, so that metaphors for intimacy are interpreted literally, e.g. "Seeing God's face." While I'm sure there will be 'seeing' in heaven, and even foretastes of it here and now for some people, will we really see GOd's face? I think we have to say no. We may be given the grace to see GOd's love for us in some tangible way, but I think we have to accept that the seeing is always going to be relationally centered, that is, a communication of intimacy in some way. This doesn't mean that what we see is not real, but that it is metaphorical or representational. Like the sacraments, what we see points beyond itself to the Reality.
Yes, that’s right. Edwards thought that seeing God’s face was seeing Christ in his humanity, but included a further “sight” of his divinity. All of this is about intimacy, knowledge, presence, etc.
This is so helpful Kyle. I had to listen to it twice. I'd love to read your essay on the Beatific vision in Edwards and Turretin. Where can I find that?
Question: I tried to listen to your Way of the Lamb podcast, but Apple Podcasts says each episode is not available. Did you take it down or move it?
Really? That’s weird. I’m not sure what the problem is. I’ll try to figure that out. You can see the article here: https://credomag.com/2023/01/the-sight-of-love/
I do more on this in my dissertation, but this gets the main points.
Yeah, podcast still unavailable on Apple Podcasts. It looks normal until you click on one to listen to, and then it says "This episode from The Way of the Lamb is temporarily unavailable. Try again later."
I read the article you link to above, but at the end it indicates this is not "the full article." Is there a way you can send me the whole of it? I'm very interested in where this is going.
That's so weird. When I try it works fine. You can also go through Spotify. I'm going to start working on getting it up on YouTube as well. I also don't see the deal with the article, but if you email me I can send it to you. I'll poke around and see what the deal is with Apple. Are you doing it from your phone?